Net Neutrality Dies With a Whimper, Not a Bang Friday Jan 24 2014 08:47 EDT As we've been discussing, if ISPs are going to violate network neutrality now that we have no protection rules, it won't be by the outright blocking of content or services, given that would bring down the hammer of government intervention. Instead, more subtle ways of being anti-competitive are going to be the norm; anti-competitive behavior will be buried under faux-technical necessity (see Verizon's incessant blocking of competing products and services) or the guise of "innovative" pricing -- whatever keeps most consumers generally confused and apathetic and therefore regulators and the press quiet. In the States AT&T's "sponsored data" is a perfect example, promising users "free data" that doesn't count against their cap, while really giving AT&T significantly more power while giving deeper-pocketed content companies an advantage over startups and small companies. AT&T erects entirely arbitrary and artificially low limits then erects tolls to bypass them; regulators stand mute, Congress sits mired in partisan gridlock, and network neutrality quietly dies under a smattering of consumer applause. In Canada, Professor Michael Geist (via Techdirt) points out that ISPs there, already having received government approval to aggressively gouge users with caps and overages to their hearts' content, are now trying something similar: quote:
Sensing consumer frustration with data caps, network providers have begun to offer access to some services or content that does not count against the monthly cap. The result is a new two-tier Internet: one Internet that counts against the monthly data cap and another that does not.For example, Bell offers a $5 per month mobile TV service that allows users to watch dozens of Bell-owned or licensed television channels for ten hours without affecting their data cap. By comparison, users accessing the same online video through a third-party service such as Netflix would be on the hook for a far more expensive data plan since all of the data usage would count against their monthly cap.
If you've been paying attention this has been the plan all along. Create completely arbitrary data limits on the network based on neither real-world network performance nor cost, then charge select companies for the ability to bypass them (or let your own content bypass the cap to unfair competitive advantage). This is what network neutrality proponents fought for years against, only to be told this sort of fractured Internet would never come to fruition. Keep in mind that Canada actually has net neutrality rules and there is a complaint in process that could thwart Bell's effort (albeit on hold) -- whereas the U.S. is an open playing field for these kinds of "creative" business models. There's a reason that regulators in the U.S. and Canada have stood mute as carriers increasingly impose usage-based pricing with unreliable meters, and it's because they approve of this sort of anti-consumer fracturing of the Internet under the guise of "innovative new pricing." |
  Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN |
Kilroy
MVM
2014-Jan-24 9:02 am
Corporate Warsquote:
In the States AT&T's "sponsored data" is a perfect example, promising users "free data" that doesn't count against their cap, while really giving AT&T significantly more power while giving deeper-pocketed content companies an advantage over startups and small companies.
The problem with this concept is that the deeper pocketed content companies did not get that way by spending money. They got that way be not spending. As Netflix told their investors (page 6) said by Netflix :
The motivation could be to get Netflix to pay fees to stop this degradation. Were this draconian scenario to unfold with some ISP, we would vigorously protest and encourage our members to demand the open Internet they are paying their ISP to deliver.
The ISPs are going to have a hard time coming out on top in this fight and should they attempt to charge more for access they may end up with greater government regulation, something that ISPs want to avoid. | |
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Re: Corporate WarsFor every still-trying-to innovate Netflix there's going to be five just-trying-to-protect turf ESPN's who think this sort of thing is a wonderful concept. | |
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Re: Corporate WarsLooks like the complaint is on hold? Any idea for how long? | |
| | | | | MaynardKrebsWe did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
Premium Member
join:2009-06-17 |
Re: Corporate Warssaid by Karl Bode:Looks like the complaint is on hold? Any idea for how long? Nope. Pay attention to that on-going thread in Canadian Broadband. As soon as there's news to post it'll be posted there within minutes of it happening. There'll be a real shitstorm (that's straight from Romulan Hyperspace) if the CRTC cancels the proceeding, or significantly waters it down. | |
| | | | | | resa1983
Premium Member
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON |
resa1983
Premium Member
2014-Jan-24 12:48 pm
Re: Corporate WarsIt's on hold for a bit to deal with Procedural Requests, so we don't have 3 proceedings about the same thing all going on at once.
PIAC didn't get their own way with Ben's Part 1, so they started Part 1s against Rogers & Videotron.. | |
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| | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
to Karl Bode
Netflix isn't innovating anything. | |
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1 recommendation |
Re: Corporate WarsLow price. On most every device available. Use it anywhere there is internet (except Comcast so far).  No pay-per-view upcharges. No commercials. Watch what you want when you want from a large library. That's quite a change. A nice change from what is available anywhere else. | |
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PlusOne
Anon
2014-Jan-24 12:21 pm
Re: Corporate Warssaid by Millenium: Use it anywhere there is internet (except Comcast so far). Netflix works on Comcast, though the accusation Comcast throttles it has some merit based on my experience. | |
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to Millenium
said by Millenium:Low price. On most every device available. Use it anywhere there is internet (except Comcast so far). No pay-per-view upcharges. No commercials. Watch what you want when you want from a large library.
That's quite a change. A nice change from what is available anywhere else. Yeah, no innovation there, huh? | |
| | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-24 2:43 pm
Re: Corporate WarsNetflix isn't offering the same prime content as pay-tv and premium channels.
They have leftovers, table-scraps, and direct-to-video junk.
Stuff you never have to worry about someone else checking out from the public library collection.
Hastings deserves credit for "eliminating late fees" in the DVD rental era, and for catching the studios off-guard to sell their junk for even less than its worth, but that isn't innovation, its negotiation. What he is providing isn't something new, it is a rehashing and reformatting of something old, at a price point low enough that people will buy it and then do their best hand-wringing and attempt to compare it to premium channel and PPV fare.
If he actually caused cord-cutting (he isn't), then you could say he's a disruptive force, but really, that only applies to the downfall of the DVD rental stores. | |
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Re: Corporate Warssaid by elray:They have leftovers, table-scraps, and direct-to-video junk.
Stuff you never have to worry about someone else checking out from the public library collection. True. But they also have the "prime" stuff too. Sons of Anarchy, Walking Dead, Breaking Bad, and many, many others. Generally the previous season and back. But if you aren't using cable, like me, previous season is new season. They also recently contracted with Disney for early run rights and a bunch of their other material. They are also producing their own quality content, as is Amazon. | |
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to elray
Me thinks you're just being contrarian.
They took a DVD empire online and successfully navigated performance pitfalls, completely revolutionized the way many people consume video on mobile devices, did it at an excellent price, and gave cable industry executives bad dreams. They're the first streaming company to win an Emmy award via original content, and they're bringing a significant amount of foreign TV overseas.
Again, yeah. Nothing much impressive going on there. Great point. | |
| | | | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-24 7:33 pm
Re: Corporate WarsCable executives don't lose sleep over Netflix. No one cares for foreign TV. That just exemplifies the weakness of their catalog and their inability to obtain prime content. They did NOT take a DVD empire online - their DVD library is not available for streaming. They were simply wise enough to realize there was an opportunity to stream tripe for cheap, and they had an existing subscriber base to sell to. People aren't going to be consuming video on mobile data service, there isn't sufficient bandwidth to allow that - you protest so daily over wireless data caps. Again, just because the technology exists and Netflix standardized the delivery, doesn't make it innovative. Ahem. I'm *not* being contrarian. I give Netflix credit for providing a low-budget service, eliminating late fees, and providing a large, diverse library by mail. But the streaming service is not on par, and it will only appeal so long as Hastings can keep it cheap and browbeat the ISPs into providing a free ride for his bits, even though he's the biggest data hog in the world. Adding in-house production is swell, but it comes at the price of losing what little prime content they already contracted. | |
| | | | | | | | |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Zoom 5341J
1 recommendation |
KrK
Premium Member
2014-Jan-24 9:17 pm
Re: Corporate WarsDo you actually use Netflix at all? Serious question. I find Netflix to be the most amazing amount of entertainment available for my money. Ever. Hands down. Does it have everything? No. Does it have plenty for the money I pay? Absolutely. | |
| | | | | | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-25 2:59 am
Re: Corporate WarsWe had the DVD service for years. I've tried the streaming service long enough to know what it doesn't have, and occasionally, I sample it when the opportunity arises - to date, there have been no surprises; they simply aren't going to pay the price necessary to license the content. | |
| | | | | | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK |
KrK
Premium Member
2014-Jan-25 7:31 am
Re: Corporate WarsThe price necessary under the old thinking. If they did, Netflix would cost double what cable does. The providers are going to have to rethink they way they price their content. | |
| | | | | | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-25 5:49 pm
Re: Corporate WarsThat's my point. Netflix is either going to have to charge a lot more, or they aren't going to offer the content people pay for on cable and satellite, and therefore, they will remain an afterthought, an also-ran, an add-on, but not actual competition for cable and satellite. | |
| | | | | | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J
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KrK
Premium Member
2014-Jan-25 10:23 pm
Re: Corporate WarsI think they are doing just fine, and it's the old model who will end up having to rethink the prices they pay for content. However, Netflix, while doing well right now is clearly caught between a rock and hard place.
Greedy content providers, and our non-competitive ISP situation who believe Netflix should have to pay tolls to exist on the Internet.... and BOTH those groups are joined at the hip.
All they really have to do is squeeze. Netflix's only defense from such a situation is Consumer backlash (notoriously fickle) and Government regulators (who seem quite beholden to their competition) so I would say they may be on their own.
Of course crushing Netflix lends itself back to the argument that Piracy is actually a moral and ethical form of protest.
Ah interesting times. | |
| | | | | | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-26 1:00 pm
Re: Corporate WarsThe old model, again, doesn't "have to" do anything.
They probably should - in the end, people will actually pay more, and greater profits will be had, but there are so many variables and pitfalls along the way.
No one (content) company is going to stick its neck out and take the 12-figure hit when it tanks - a Primestar+Voom+Betamax+HD-DVD+DAT+(Circuit City) Divx+3DO+MovieBeam+GoogleTV+WebTV combined nightmare product rollout opportunity on steroids.
Meanwhile the other so-called "innovative" firms won't ante up the 12-figure down-payment for the licensing to crack the dam.
I see nothing wrong with "greed" - its a prime motivator to attract financing for those who take the risks to produce the goods we all want. But I can't see how that applies to the content owners; they're simply protecting, via the "old model", what belongs to them, as they continue to risk and produce more.
Netflix *should* pay tolls. | |
| | | | | | | | | | Kilroy
MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN |
Kilroy
MVM
2014-Jan-26 6:53 pm
Re: Corporate Warssaid by elray:The old model, again, doesn't "have to" do anything. [Sarcasm=ON] Right, they should keep their same outdated model and not adjust to the desires of the people consuming their content. They should continue to produce physical media that the public no longer wants to purchase. They should delay the release of digital content as long as possible so people who would have purchased their product find alternatives. They should continue draconian copy protection that punishes the people who purchase their product. Yeah, that's a great business plan, no reason they should fail.[Sarcasm=OFF] | |
| | | | | | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-26 11:33 pm
Re: Corporate WarsYep. If the "old model" continues to produce the same or greater profit margins, compared to the risk of huge losses, both for product failure - and potential cheapening of the product, that the "new" desires of the public, then indeed, they have no reason to change.
The public wants more for less - they want unlimited a la carte, location-independent and untethered, without meter anxiety, in high resolution, without performance issues or contract restrictions, and they want libraries of content without expiration or holes.
But that ain't gonna happen just because you proclaim it, it will happen when industry sees it as generating greater profits. | |
| | | | | | | | | | 54761437 (banned)
join:2013-01-18
Durham, NC |
54761437 (banned)
Member
2014-Jan-27 8:00 am
Re: Corporate Warssaid by elray:The public wants more for less - they want unlimited a la carte, location-independent and untethered, without meter anxiety, in high resolution, without performance issues or contract restrictions, and they want libraries of content without expiration or holes. Sounds good to me. Bandwidth is cheaper than ever. Just because you proclaim the industry won't move in one direction unless it sees greater profit potential doesn't mean their model *won't* be moved by the will of the people. People do want all those things, but people are also reasonable. The average person isn't watching 60 movies a month in Super HD on Netflix, or streaming 50GB of video while tethering their phone. The industry loves to blame the woes of the 99% on the greed of the 1% (remind you of anyone else?), but that simply doesn't wash with reality. If the industry wants to remain relevant they better acknowledge the writing on the wall. Adapt or die. | |
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| | | | | | jjeffeoryjjeffeory
join:2002-12-04
Bloomington, IN |
to elray
I find things to watch on Netflex whenever I want. In case you don't know, there's crap on the other services too. Even free TV has crap on. It may be "New" crap during prime time. but crap is crap... | |
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Re: Corporate WarsProbably cable's biggest advantage is their half hour commercials for the latest colon cleans that'll cure all your health problems and 3 others you don't have. I miss cable. Yeah, right. | |
| | | | | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
to jjeffeory
You illustrate my point.
Instead of watching what you want - that's on prime, pay-tv, and premium networks, you are settling for finding "something" to watch, and justifying it.
While there is nothing wrong with making the economic choice to buy Netflix over premium channels or PPVs or other cable tiers, so long as you or Netflix is willing to pay the overhead for the delivery stream, Netflix content remains not comparable to what one obtains on cable or satellite. | |
| | | | | | | | | 54761437 (banned)
join:2013-01-18
Durham, NC |
54761437 (banned)
Member
2014-Jan-25 2:31 am
Re: Corporate WarsThe future is on-demand and the future is here. If cable companies and content producers want to cling to the old model, that's fine. This is why Netflix plus piracy gives you everything you need. | |
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| | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK |
KrK to elray
Premium Member
2014-Jan-24 9:15 pm
to elray
Disagree. Netflix is changing things in the way iTunes changed things. It's a complete paradigm shift. | |
| | | | | elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA |
elray
Member
2014-Jan-25 2:56 am
Re: Corporate WarsNope. iTunes brought all the content providers together at once, and got them to agree, for a long time, to uniform pricing, making ~95% of popular music available, for purchase.
Netflix brings unseen and unheard of material, and its many fans "find something to watch".
It isn't changing anything.
A paradigm shift would require delivering the same content one obtains on cable or satellite, as a baseline. | |
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| | | 54761437 (banned)
join:2013-01-18
Durham, NC |
to elray
So is that why MSOs are so afraid of them stealing their marketshare? Remember: cord cutters don't exist. Hardy har har. | |
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to Kilroy
This was likely regulator's plan all along too, they don't have the backbone or political backing to pre-emptively stop ISPs from doing this. Instead they watched and waited for their hand to be forced. The end result may very well be regulators get more control than they would have being pre-emptive as well. Still, it is the people who the regulators are supposed to protect who are being harmed in these power struggles. | |
| | |  cork1958Cork
Premium Member
join:2000-02-26 |
cork1958
Premium Member
2014-Jan-24 9:24 am
Re: Corporate Warssaid by masterbinky: Still, it is the people who the regulators are supposed to protect who are being harmed in these power struggles. So, what else is new? Our wonderfully corrupt governments at work, being paid for by the lobbyists with the deepest pockets! | |
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to masterbinky
said by masterbinky:This was likely regulator's plan all along too, they don't have the backbone or political backing to pre-emptively stop ISPs from doing this. Even if they wanted to, governments generally do not have jurisdictions over the details of how ISPs operate their network so they would be unable to do anything about ISPs not buying sufficient external transit or building sufficient internal transit to handle more traffic, exactly how traffic gets routed internally and tons of other internal stuff that could be leveraged to favor selected content sources without specifically interfering with any other. Same goes for cache appliances: I seriously doubt governments can order ISPs NOT to improve their network's efficiency by deploying CDN and content provider caches at strategic points across their network to reduce both internal and external load and latency. It really boils down to economies of scale: large companies have the capital and influence to buy their way into networks to reduce their net cost while improving services. While Netflix is crying about network neutrality now, there was a time not so long ago where Netflix did make peering with their CDN mandatory for subscribers to gain access to their HD/2k resolution options. | |
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1 edit |
So much wastedWhat disappoints me the most is I spent nearly a $1000 just a little over a year ago upgrading to wireless Smart TVs so I could use Netflix unfettered. Guess I can't see everything coming.
Enjoy internet while it lasts I will. I know I've spent my last dollar on anything that needs internet. Soon there will be no ISPs, just PNSPs. Private Network Service Providers. | |
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•••• |  sbrook
Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa |
sbrook
Mod
2014-Jan-24 10:18 am
Neutrality hasn't failed here ... yet.The big difference here it is the ISP giving themselves preferential treatment and that violates more than just the network neutrality rules. There are regulations about BDUs giving themselves preferential treatment.
This is in essence an anti-monopolistic behaviour regulation here.
Network neutrality is somewhat different, although it is as one might say, the start of a slippery slope. What has happened in the US is clearly just forget the slope, let's just blow the concept right away. | |
| | bklass
Premium Member
join:2012-02-06
Canada |
bklass
Premium Member
2014-Jan-24 12:39 pm
Re: Neutrality hasn't failed here ... yet.bump | |
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News readers get it wrong.If I pay a premium for a high speed broadband tier it would be fraud to intentionally interferer with the data stream, from a website, to force customers to pay an additional fee for access to that websites at the speed the customer is paying for. Comcast is good at taking away features and services and then charging customers to get the features or services back. When video on demand was introduced customers had access to a large library of movies. A year later Comcast advised customers that in order to continue to have access to the same movies, customers would have to pay an additional $4.99 per month. Another example of greed unlimited. | |
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anonome
Anon
2014-Jan-24 4:49 pm
The "Internet"...as delivered by the likes of Verizon and Comcast is a sinking ship.
I'm getting off... where's the lifeboat? | |
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ThatGuy
Anon
2014-Jan-25 7:45 am
Re: The "Internet"...We did away with it in favor of a toll-free lifeboat system. It's cheaper, but it can only take you to Verizon and Comcast colonies.
Fuck it, I'm swimming. Where's my 56k? | |
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J
1 recommendation |
KrK
Premium Member
2014-Jan-24 9:13 pm
All they have to do is nothing at all....Peer oversaturated? Simply don't upgrade it. Let it get worse.
When companies complain, show them to the toll road and say "Pay up".
They refuse? Leave them on the over-saturated slow lane.
This is wrong on so many levels.
I wish I had a business where I could simply extort money by sitting on my ass. I'm hoping there is serious pushback on this issue, or we're screwed. | |
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No pay-per-view upcharges. No commercials. Watch what you want when you want from a large library.
